Walls or a Shield – How Well Do You Trust Yourself and Your God….?
November 1, 2010 by Christian Business Daily
No net, no safety harness. This show was done without an agenda or any conversation beforehand. Both of us got fired up and were amazed at how the Spirit can flow.
We start with Halloween. Some believers choose to not participate in Halloween because they believe it’s from the devil. Listen how Matt and Bob feel about this, as we take it to a place you never thought it could go — your business!
Do you only do business with other believers? Do you turn away vendors, employees, clients, or partners because they do not believe like you? Are you missing out? Hear about what Matt and Bob have experienced in this area and what they’ve discovered.
Do you have a “wall” mentality or a “shield” mentality? Do you trust yourself, and do you trust God to allow you to walk into the the darkest places of business and bring light there (not a Bible tract and the 4 laws – we mean YOU)? Bob and Matt talk about the apostle Paul and Christ himself – they operated a lot different than believers do today.
We’re not bragging, but this is a good show. If this doesn’t get you thinking, well, then you might be a zombie….just kidding.
Hi guys,
I guess without having to preface, by saying, we’re brothers in the Lord, yada yada… We agree on the very important points, etc. etc … We know this and that’s the blessing that we’re saved …
However, just the attitude you guys have about Christians and Halloween … alone … says something. So, laugh at believers, mock and be condescending about people’s convictions? I don’t get it? Explain that to me please.
Are you saying that we should celebrate Halloween? Isn’t this about each of our own convictions and respecting that? You’re essentially telling people they are weak or wrong or whatever, for not celebrating Halloween. Locking themselves up inside because they’re scared or ‘don’t trust themselves’? Wow, these statements are so off, I can’t believe it.
You’re saying we feel that if we celebrate and have fun on Halloween that we’ll fall away? Or not appease God? Wow guys. Come on.
Most anyone who doesn’t celebrate Halloween — used to. We did, but then learned more about this holiday, what goes on and wanted to not be a friend of this world. To honor the Lord instead.
Bob said he won’t judge, yet his entire premise is condescending. You guys are more concerned with trying to ‘buck the system’, be ‘cool Christians’ and the like … but you end up ‘trying’ to find ways to do what you want to do. Where’s the scripture? (Oh sorry, I just said where’s the scripture? This seems to bother you two. You have these things about Christians that bother you … many things actually.).
So, how about this … let’s celebrate Hitler’s birthday? Or, for example, someone who murdered a bunch of people you know, whatever … yeah, let’s celebrate it. Bottom line, it doesn’t make sense. Yet, you’re almost entreating us to run toward this holiday? What’s up with that?
Are you here to please our precious Lord and Savior? Does He deserve us to ultimately glorify Him in every single way? What are you saying when you’re wanting to celebrate a holiday that gives glory to the enemy. And do you really know what goes on this night? You aware of the amount of sacrifices and satanic conven practices that go on?
Since when is it an exciting thing to be part of something like this?
And to call Christians, “Idiotic?” Wow, talk about throwing the body of Christ under the bus?
Comparing Christmas to Halloween? Please elaborate man. Yeah, the day that Jesus Christ became a human compared to Halloween? (Sure, there’s definitely pagan stuff on Christmas, but to compare to Halloween? Wow)
And you talk about Jesus meeting with sinners, like going trick or treating is similar? Umm … no. This is clearly a holiday that, at it’s core, is about evil. And, for the most part, gives glory to evil. Check out the OT … the Israelites were to avoid associating with other rituals, gods, etc.
To clarify something … yes Most people who do something on Halloween are not trying to glorify evil. I know that. But, for you to put down Christians (the body of Christ … of YOUR Lord) is totally unnecessary.
Mark, thanks for your comments.
Are you placing your hope and trust on your convictions, or on a person? Does someone who avoids sin please God more than someone who doesn’t? I come from a background where that is taught. If you sin less, you love God more. So if you avoid all the worldly stuff, perform the religious rituals, you are in God’s favor. My study of the Scriptures has led me to the complete opposite. That no matter how hard I try not to sin, I can NEVER please God. It’s not my lack of sin that draws me to him, it’s me.
I just don’t see where kids dressing up and going door to door to get candy glorifies the enemy. I don’t see where carving pumpkins glorifies Satan.
I’m sure you’ve investigated the origins of Sunday and Easter, right? Both have their origins and name from pagan names and rituals. But if you didn’t know that, you wouldn’t be violating your conscience, right? If you celebrate a day with candy and pumpkins and have no idea that someone is glorifying the enemy somewhere, are you still sinning?
But that’s not the point. Our point is this – that we place walls around ourselves and our kids which prevent us from even engaging the enemy anywhere. Since when is a war won by refusing to engage? Why can’t we go celebrate a fun day and reclaim it for the Kingdom? If Christ’s death was enough to cover the sins of the world, then we have the ability to be part of these celebrations because in our hearts, we’re not worshipping Satan. True worship is of the heart, and if my heart is 100% in his hands, and Christ lives there, I cannot possibly see how my heart would be turned to worship of the enemy by having a fun day with kids and neighbors.
There’s a lot we can say about the body of Christ that leaves a lot to be desired, if we limit it to people that attend a service on Sundays. If we include the body to be the Ecclesia, then we’re more in line with Scripture.
So I’m not dismissing you point, I’m just in a place where I trust God differently that in the past. I’m more confident of him to protect my heart than for me to try and guard it myself.
I understand your position and your points, and I respect them. I just hope you see that anything we engage in this world can be drawn back to sin, and we cannot avoid it. There’s a lot more we can trace to pagan roots that you take for granted, but I choose to accepted the Reformed point of view – God has restored all things.
I think Mark’s larger point is that in your urging for Christians not to be judgmental, you take a very condescending tone. You respond as if Mark made the point that we have to go to church on Sunday, which he didn’t. His point was that you are being pretty judgmental yourselves when you lambaste those who aren’t as “open minded” as you. As if trick or treating is some kind of brand new thing that progressive Christians are suddenly doing. I know Fundamentalists who trick or treat, so I don’t know what background you are coming from…but bucking against your own upbringing doesn’t qualify you to make sweeping statements about individual Christians who have their individual convictions. That’s what you are asking them not to do to you, is it not?
Plus, I’d like you to list 5 businesses that you know of that only do business with other Christians. It seems like you’re making stuff up to complain about. Don’t you have other things to do with your time…like figure out other things that make all the people that raised you in the faith idiots and losers?
Thanks for taking the time to respond, Adam.
Did I call people that raised me idiots and losers? Not sure I did that, but maybe I need to listen to the show again. I can name a huge number of businesses that only do business with other Christians, none of which you would even recognize. Of course I’m not saying that every Christian business is acting in one particular way, but you do realize that there are books and websites that exist for the sole purpose of alerting Christians to which businesses are Christian, right? In the same way that there are ethnic business people that will only do business with someone of their same ethnicity – is that right? What I am speaking about, of course, is all based on experience, not scientific data. Matt and I aren’t dumb enough to believe that every business operates the same way, but you cannot deny the experiences we’ve have had and have shared.
I’m glad that people like you and Mark have spoken up. There’s a lot of people sitting on their hands, and a lot of people saying a lot that doesn’t mean anything. I really hate that Christians believe the way to affect this world is to build large places of refuge and inviting people to come in, instead of engaging the world and making a difference.
Our main point is that there’s very little place to expand the Kingdom when you make conscience choices to repel people and force them to conform to a set of rules on your turf. How does that make me a valid witness when I’m not out there living life with you? How can I possible affect change in the halls of the legislature without being a representative? How can I influence Hollywood when I only take jobs editing video at church? How can I affect Wall Street when I call all those traders greedy and not allow my child to enter that field?
Halloween is not the issue – it’s a metaphor. My going to church or not is also outside the point. I’ve got a right to work out my issues on this blog and on the radio show because we own it, just like anyone else can own their space online. I want people to hear about my struggles, and I want them to hear me work this stuff out. It’s raw, it’s real, and therefore will certainly rub people the wrong way. But there are some people that are absolutely loving this. Just like a lot of other talk radio, you have to decide if listening to this helps you or not. It’s a choice you have as a listener, and a choice we have as a broadcaster.
Thanks again for your comment, Adam.
what Jesus preached is that we should love the sinner and not the sin….
Jesus loved the sinner, but did not participate in their sin to show that He loves them…
I do not know much about Halloween (I am from Sri Lanka), but I know it celebrates things to do with ‘darkness — witches, wizards, spells etc.’ – Bible is very clear on these matters….
So I believe If Jesus was here he would not celebrate Halloween, because it celebrates sin…but He will also not condemn/hate judge those who celebrate – for example, we know adultery is a sin, so will a Christian join in a celebration where their celebrate adult movies ? – I do not think so…..I do not think Jesus would either….
So as Jesus would do…..we should not participate in Halloween activities….& we should not judge/condemn those who do….but we should be an example to them as Jesus would have done…without trying to do what they do to show we approve of what they do to show we love them…no that is not the teaching of the Jesus….we are supposed to hate the sin/not practice it…but love unconditionally the sinner…..
Shanek, I sort of agree with you. Jesus would not celebrate it, but he wouldn’t shy away from being around the people during the celebration. Paul gives us the best example of this, in that he still went into the temples during the sacrifices. He didn’t celebrate the process, but he was there to answer questions.
Would Jesus dress up as Yoda or Frankenstein? Probably not, but he would be real in the flesh to folks and he would relish the opportunity to meet these folks on their ground to love them unconditionally.
First off Mark and Adam, forgive me if you think that we were throwing other Christians under the bus. Our intent in anything that we do is to be real. What you hear on these podcasts is not scripted, it’s two guys and guests sorting out what goes on in our lives and how we see Christ living in us and through us.
On the issue of ‘celebrating’ Halloween. Let’s be clear. We are not advocating dressing up as count dracula and pouring blood over our front steps. We are advocating to be a part of society and meeting people where they are in their process.
Paul gives us the best example of this in that he went to the temples where they were sacrificing animals and children. He went into the market place where things were done in a way that he didn’t agree with. Why? Because that’s where the lost souls were hanging out.
Jesus hung out with tax collectors and prostitutes. He met them on their turf. He loved them in the process they were in and met them in their place of pain or horror.
Unconditional love means you don’t force yourself on others. You don’t point out other wrongs. (1 Cornithians 13) It means you don’t keep score.
I will leave you with this. There is a guy who has been called to the porn industry. He has a site http://xxxchurch.com/ He ministers to people in the porn industry and those who are addicted to porn. He sets up a booth at the porn industry show and develops relationships with those in that world. He meets them on their turf.
Guess what, he’s leading people into a relationship with Christ. All because he decided to not picket the convention, but go inside and love on these folks.
Now that’s the kingdom.
Totally agree with Matt and Bob here!
Jesus told us to go into the nations and to share the gospel. He did not say “be afraid of the world and lock yourselves away in an ivy covered tower”.
I have been on both sides of this debate, and as I’ve studied the scriptures, it seems clear to me that no matter how uncomfortable we feel with attitudes, unbelief and inappropriate behavior, we are to be “out” there.
Come on lovers of Christ~ come on out of the closet! It’s really exciting to be a Jesus lover today. Lot’s of things to do and people to talk to about your great love for God! THEY need to hear it…not the church people.
How about the commands about being a “light of the world”? How about when Peter enter the temple of Diana and called out that principality? How about Jesus’ command to “love your neighbor”?
When the neighborhood kids see you making your house black ( and I have done this, myself) and keeping your door shut giving out no candy to them, what kind of message are we sending to them?
I have talked to neighbors about this and they are afraid of people who do that!
I say put on a sheet and when people ask you who you are tell them the Holy Ghost!
Matthew 5:16 (New International Version © 2010)
16 In the same way, let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven.
I think with the debate about Halloween, some are missing the forest for the trees. I myself have no problem with Halloween. In my neighborhood, churches have parties because it is too dangerous on the streets…I’m from the home of Hell night. You would concede, I think, that if it’s a matter of safety for one’s child, there is nothing wrong with attending a party in a building and getting candy that way.
But I digress.
The problem I’m having is that this newly embraced freedom (I think Bob said he was now a free believer?) seems to come across as you saying that those who still follow traditions you once did are in the dark. Saying “I don’t want to judge” then making a bold judgment about people’s motives is going against your own propositions.
Obviously, you can say what you want on your podcast. I’m glad you have that right. But don’t always assume that backlash is close-mindedness. Whether you think it or not, you are making judgments about good God loving people who are working out their own stuff. Snarkiness or impatience with them is just as bad as them doing it to you.
And I’d like to remind you that Paul and Jesus were both fiercely in love with the church and as a part of that, both of them attended Sabbath observance at the Synagogue (until for Paul Christians started gathering on Sundays). But that’s not the point either. The Sabbath is made for man, not man for the Sabbath. Paul also told believers not to fret about which day they took their Sabbath. But don’t turn it around and mistake ritual for legalism. For some ritual is highly important and they are just as valid in fighting for their ritual as others are for the eradication of ritual.
I guess my point is, if you act like people who haven’t come to the same conclusion as you are somehow not as in tune with God as you are, you’re going to get people telling you not to judge them for going through their rituals as voraciously as you tell them not to judge you for getting “three sheets to the wind” walking around your neighborhood being “light”.
Hi Guys,
Thanks for openly responding and Matt, for the apology.
What seems to be happening is an ‘all or nothing’ perspective. You’re, kinda assuming that someone like me, is NOT sharing my faith and ‘getting out there’. I really don’t know why you’d make such a sweeping generalization on the podcast and even after our responses.
Of course, we agree with meeting with people. Getting out there. Meeting with ‘sinners’(unbelievers are my term of choice). Having non-Christian friends. Yes, doing business with non believers — I do this, all day long.
But, you make these statements, as if that’s not what we do?
The point is … you have a podcast and email list that reaches a lot of believers and non-believers. Some are young believers too. So, your tone and attitudes on this show were unacceptable for loving ‘each other’ as were supposed. to. And yes, of course, there are the few Christians who are scared and hide. Of course. But, why focus your show on the few? It’s a form of sensationalism that can happen to any of us when we’re trying to be interesting and cute and persuasive when you have an audience. (I’m not saying I wouldn’t face the same temptation).
Anyway, I only had originally responded because there is a theme with you guys and it’s not seeming healthy. You had a series where you talked about how Christians are terrible when helping their friends who are in crisis. Again, the tone there was — all you Christians are terrible … judgmental … scripture quoting (like this is bad???) … on and on.
I didn’t respond to that series, because it was isolated. No biggie. But then I heard this one and you guys now sound like you’re consistently irritated with the body of Christ? Like you want to be more a part of this world and fit in great and be soo effective because you’re being a part of everything … loving everything and everyone. And, it’s like, don’t quote scripture to someone because then you’re being too religious … putting pressure on them and not really hearing their feelings, etc..
To me … I don’t think you can go wrong with quoting scripture, as long as it’s truly in love and without judgment. I mean … isn’t the word of God living and active? (Heb 4:12 NKJV) Shouldn’t we 100% rely on it and give it as advice, rather than our man-made ideas and philosophies?
Bob, you asked about ‘pleasing’ God? Whether we can or not. The answer is 100% yes. I’m a little surprised you even asked this?
To clarify – Can we earn salvation? Nope. Can we earn our righteousness? Nope. But can we please Him? Absolutely.
First … just keep your eyes open next time when you read the scripture OT and NT and notice how many – If / then statements and cause / effect stuff there is. Frankly, it’s overwhelming. Just the shear understanding of we reap what we sow (Gal 6) is enough to cover this topic.
Can we please God?
Romans 8:8 (NASB)
8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
1 Corinthians 7:32 (NASB)
32 But I want you to be free from concern. One who is unmarried is concerned about the things of the Lord, how he may please the Lord;
Colossians 1:10 (NASB)
10 so that you will walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, to please Him in all respects, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God;
1 Thessalonians 4:1 (NASB)
4:1 Finally then, brethren, we request and exhort you in the Lord Jesus, that as you received from us instruction as to how you ought to walk and please God, that you excel still more.
As children of the King of Kings … shouldn’t we be highly concerned with our personal actions? Not because it earns us stuff … but because He loved us first and now we want to return that love by FIXING our eyes on Jesus. By running from evil. He hates sin and hates hands that run toward sin. Prov 6 in the 6 things God hates section.
The bottom line is: God is beyond merciful. Beyond gracious and long suffering. He’s truly awesome. His Word is our guide. Let’s not makes any decisions based on our own thoughts and traditions and desires and pride. Let’s make it ALL about His Word and Him. Not get upset because a ‘fundamental Christian’ is quoting a bible verse.
Bob, the fact that you hate that Christians build ‘places of refuge’ … hmm … first, I do agree to a point. But, if a church or ministry is led by God to create a place for people to meet and gather — how do you know it’s not from God? You say you ‘hate’ that? It seems you’re really ‘against’ us man. Like you’ve been hurt or something? I’ve been there — only did home church for awhile because I was sick and tired of the show that can be in Christendom. But, church is not perfect and neither am I.
Matt — xxxchurch.com is doing a great thing by meeting the needs of the hordes of men and women under sexual bondage. Do they cross a line sometimes? Yes, I personally think so … a couple of video’s are titillating … that’s never good. But, yes unconventional ministry, as long as it is of the Lord, is great! Totally agree with you.
Yeah Matt, Jesus did meet with tax collectors, sinners … etc, etc. Yep, I do too and most of the believers who don’t celebrate Halloween, I’m going to guess, do too. They love the Lord soo much that they don’t want to participate in a holiday that glorifies evil. So, that tells me they’re probably trying to follow the Word in other areas of their lives too.
Lastly — it’s a year to year decision for us. This year, we did a getaway and made it a special time for us and the kids. A couple years back we focused on including tracks with a poem and bunch of candy for the trick or treaters. I’m personally not telling any believer, who has a Godly conviction, to NOT minister on this holiday. But, I certainly wouldn’t encourage, just any Christian to line up with this day that clearly represents evil. Why be the cheerleader for this particular holiday?
I pray for the influence you have and that you’ll spurn other believers on toward a repentant, grateful and holy walk with our Lord.
Take care. Mark