A Story Of Two Believers
April 16, 2010 by Matthew Gillogly
At the end of this story, let me know your thoughts on who served God more and reflected Jesus more in their lives.
This is the story of two believers. Both attended the same teenage summer revival. Both came to know Christ during the same night time service at an outdoor Christian concert/revival. Both are 16 years old.
Both are smart kids, taking honor courses in high school, student body Presidents. Both have outstanding grade point averages and have their pick of schools and careers.
One chooses to go into ministry and attend a seminary school to eventually become a missionary and pastor. He is given a full ride and is the toast of his town.
The other has a desire to be the CEO of a large company. He attends Harvard University where he is given a full ride and is the toast of the town.
After college, the first young man goes off to Africa to serve the poor in ministry for 5 years.
The second goes to the Wharton School of business and gets his MBA with a minor in finances. He ends up taking an entry level job with a small regional bank. He marries, buys a house in the burbs, works his way up the corporate ladder. He has three kids, doesn’t attend church regularly, is not in a regular Bible study and joins a private country club.
The second has a nice house, a nice car, a great job and loves his fellow man/neighbor. He doesn’t give 10% of his money to the church but gives generously to whomever has a need. Regardless of their ‘religious’ beliefs.
He isn’t on committees, not involved in mentoring youth at his church (however he does mentor youth at the local middle and high school.)
The second eventually becomes the CEO of his bank, which buys up other banks around the country. Eventually becoming the largest bank in America. He is the CEO/Chairman. He gives generously of his time, talents and treasures. He still doesn’t attend church, read his Bible every morning nor is he involved in a regular Bible study. But he loves the Lord with all his heart and loves his fellow man.
The first who went to Africa on a mission trip for 5 years, comes back and gets married to a woman from the village where he was stationed. They come back to America where he gets his PhD in theology, then goes on staff at a large church. He becomes a respected pastor. His wife and him adopt kids from Africa.
He organizes mission trips, Bible studies, leads his church. He leads thousands into a personal relationship with the father. He never has much financially in his life. He is exceptionally well paid at the church but gives it all away. He sells hundreds of thousands of books about Christ and living like Christ. He drives a basic car, lives in a basic house and never seems to have much left for him and the family.
He teaches others to be prophetic, pray in tongues, minister in the spirit and many other great gifts of the spirit.
He spends 30 years at his church and eventually retires. He dies penniless, constantly living on the mercy of others. He only leaves to his children his faith and his books. Which have touched at this point millions. His love for Christ never changes, encouraging others to come to know Christ.
The second man, dies an exceptionally wealthy man. He sets up trusts and foundations for his kids to oversee. He leaves a long lasting legacy for his great grandchildren of faith and fortune. His love for Christ and his fellow man never changes. But he never attends church on a regular basis.
Who in your mind is the better Christian?
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Since you’re talking about externals–hard to say, right? I agree with your implication that we look at the wrong things when it comes to seeing our fellow man.
In my opinion–whose heart was most alive and most closely followed what God led him towards? That’s the answer.
That’s like the end of the old riddle many of you may know: ” I can’t operate on my son…..” The doctor was his mother. I think the answer is to have evidence of friutfulness in our lives like the Pastor, but also invest “talents” (see Mathew 25) the Lord has given. They were both good Christians in the fact they both loved the Lord with all heart mind and soul, and thy neighbor as thy self.
Well I think both of them were good christians in their own right, because it does seem like they both were doing what their heart desired. I don’t get the sense that the pastor guy was doing anything out of duty or legalism or anything like that, and I don’t get the sense that ambition was driving the CEO guy either. It sounds to me like they both chose the path they desired and followed it to the end in freedom and peace, which seems to me like what honors God the most, because we then become who He intended for us to be…those are my thoughts.
Ok, you got me. I don’t usually post but I couldn’t resist. This is like one of the trick questions my high school teacher used to give us. Since I’m here, here’s my answer:
If we’re ever going to succeed in the “christian life” we must be rid of terms like “good christian”, “bad christian” and most definitely “better christian”. There is no such thing, there is only “christian” and….not.
The answer is to Love God and Love People, regardless of your lot in life and it is not for us to judge another’s relationship with God.
Let’s not forget the widow lady who gave a meager amount..to which Jesus said:
“The truth is that this poor widow gave more to the collection than all the others put together. All the others gave what they’ll never miss; she gave extravagantly what she couldn’t afford—she gave her all.”
I think they both served God, it’s obvious that the minister reflected Christ more-it appears that even the businessman’s closest friends may not have know his faith; hard to surmise some things from your story. Personally (IMHO-for me only) as a Christian businessman I think it’s my duty to be “salt and light” to point others towards Christ, to encourage, uplift, etc and, of course to help those in need with my and my Co’s resources. That’s me. Not everyone feels the same way which is fine. I do, however find it difficult to understand how someone can “love the Lord with all of his heart…” and not read His word, pray, etc. If I love my wife, I want to spend time with her….Blessings From Texas.
Okay, Kevin, so here is my question for you. Is me reading my bible everyday the only way that I can communicate with God. If your kids wanted to get to know you, would you have them go read a book about you? Or would you hang out with them?
And can’t prayer be our work? Isn’t prayer time when we are communicating with God? Can’t I be communicating with God when I work?
It’s not at all important nor determined by man who among us is the better Christian. What is most important is deciding for yourself to first become a Christian and then living your life thereon within the blood covenant of Christ.
In Hebrews 10:25 it states “Forsake not the assembling of yourselves together as the manner of some and much more as you see the day approaching.” And in Joshua 1:8 “This book of the law shall not depart from your mouth, but you shall meditate on it day and night, so that you may be careful to do according to all that is written in it.”
Can someone be a good spiritual person without doing this, yes! Are these laws that must be followed to be a christian, no! Are these foundations for growing in the Lord, yes! If you mentor teens where they are at, that can be more powerful them expecting them to come to you! But if you do this without talking about the importance of having and developing a saving relationship with God through Jesus Christ, you have wasted your time!
It is hard and almost impossible to grow in faith and stay away from sin without being involved in church or having an active quiet time with the Lord. I know this completely from experience. In real life it would not be my place to judge this second man, but it would be the place of Christian men to encourage him to grow in the faith.
The first person is not a better example of Christ just because he went to Africa to serve Christ. I absolutely believe it is the call for some to stay here and minister through their place in life. Using your business as a ministry is an amazing opportunity!
Troy Mercer certainly has a good point in reminding us that Jesus said the poor widow who gave all she had, really gave far more than the rich.
On the other hand, the bible addresses money more than any other topic. If it’s used correctly, it is used correctly, it’s as much a blessing as spiritual assistance that the pastor/missionary gave. Each of these two men gave what they were blessed with from God. Do we know for sure that the pastor gave 100% of himself in all other areas besides money? No, we don’t. Do we know that the banker gave 100% of himself in the ways that he did? Again, no.
If we do the very best we can, according to our talents, we are judged by our hearts, not the monetary value of our “ministry”.
The bible says we should leave something for our posterity. The pastor left nothing & it seems he barely met the needs of his family while he lived. I suggest that his wife & children may have resented that unless they were fully on board with a self induced poverty program. He was perhaps more “religious” in his ways, but the word also says he who fails to care for his own is worse than an infidel.
While the banker was never one to act “religious”, he still loved Jesus & did many good things as he saw needs. Jesus condemned “religion”, the religious pharisees & simply said “follow me”. Can we condemn him for not giving his “all”?
Given that we don’t know whether each servant gave 100% of their particular talents or gifts, I don’t think we can really say who served better, but I would lean toward the one who provided for his family & posterity the best.
God’s Word is a guide book and authority on how I live my life and run my business. The Holy Spirit uses it to speak to me. He also speaks to me in prayer and through other believers. My work is an act of worship. Rom. 12: 1&2 and I do it as to Him. Ps. 23: 1 The Lord is my Shepard. He is the boss. If I love Him with all my heart, I wil crave spending time with Him. Prayer and Bible reading becomes a dialogue not a monologe. Through it I learn to know HIm better. As I learn to know Him more and more, He gives me a greater desire to live each and every moment for Him and with Him. A sold out disciple Luke 9:23 denies himself, takes up his cross daily, and follows Him. This does not mean that as a disciple I cannot have earthly success in business. It does mean however, that my focus is on Jesus and His mission in all my business dealings.
God wants to use every believer to reach a lost world no matter what their profession. I could not keep my eyes on Jesus if I did not spend time alone with Him. Then my purpose in business would change form His purpose to mine. My love for myself becomes greater at that point, and He doesn’t have all my heart. Grace and Peace, Rick
Clearly the Bible says to attend church and read it often and pray (daily, if possible). To ask who the better Christian is not a Christian question. It’s not up to us to judge, only God sees the heart. Our job is clearly stated in Matt 22:36-40 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” 37Jesus replied: ” ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
Seems like both followed these commandments so I would say if they both have Jesus in there heart the both are Christians and both will be in Heaven. But it’s not for me to say. What more can any Christian want than to go to Heaven and have everyone he meets to go there too. It’s a personal relationship with God/Jesus/Holy Spirit. It would be like trying to predict when Jesus is coming back. The arguement is futile because the bible says no man knows not even Jesus. So why bother trying to guess? Simply put your trust in Him, The Word of God.
God Bless Matt I hope you have a Blessed weekend.
Firstly, I think I could not compare them with my own eyes and judgement. After I read this story, I saw a picture is that they are two different limb on a same body, one is an arm, another is a leg. Or one is a cup, another is a plate in God’s hands. I thought, I have no the right to say who is the “better christian”. I also may not take them as my sample to fellow becasue there is already a sample for us to fellow that is Jesus. God gives us different life experience to walk with Him. All He wants to see is our heart.
Because — “Keep thy heart with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of life.”
Matt, couldn’t have said it better than Rick. Not judging anyone but if you want to grow as a Believer, no better place than His Word. Blessings.
Since we are not either one of them and cannot tell their motives, we have to form our opinion through observation.
Jesus gave Himself away, “died penniless” and appeared to “constantly live at the mercy of others.” There is a bit of condescension in the way that statement is made about the pastor, and an implication that the prosperity of the businessman was somehow evidence of God’s blessing .
Since we don’t know either the pastor’s motives or what his family thought about it, it is hard to say that he was not providing or that he was “being religious.”. It says that he made a great salary and gave it all away, and didn’t “appear” to have much for himself or his family. Were they hungry or without a roof or clothes or basic needs, or even some wants? It doesn’t say. But they do probably know what day-by-day dependence on God is in a way that the businessman does not – in my opinion, a greater gift than the material abundance bequeathed by the businessman to his children.
The businessman leaving a fortune for his kids and grandkids actually cuts off an opportunity for God to show Himself able to provide for their needs since they will never have to ask Him for anything.
And even though the businessman “loves the Lord with all his heart”, how can anyone tell? I have to agree with those who have spoken already about how important knowing God’s Word is to knowing God. If he never cracks open his Bible, spends time with other Christians, or spends any time somewhere where he can learn about the Bible, it is unlikely that he knows enough of God to have a deep relationship with Him. It says that he mentors youth, but it doesn’t mention anything about sharing his faith with them, or with anyone, for that matter. The pastor led people to Christ and wrote books that impacted millions.
Of course, if either of them was doing what they did for show, like the Pharisee who prayed about himself and how he was glad he was not like other men, then everything they did will end up on the wood, hay and stubble pile.
I’m not bashing business people. I certainly do not believe that you cannot he successful and prosperous and still be a “good Christian” – whatever that is. Before I came to the Lord I was also generous and loved my fellow man. I worked on Wall Street and had plenty of money and an enviable life. I also mentored young people. I believed in God and thought I was a good person. But I did not do any of it for the glory of God, and whatever impact I had did not have eternal value.. When I became a Christian, everyone in my office and life noticed a difference in my attitude and behavior, and my love for people. I couldn’t help but tell them what a difference Christ had made in my life. Good works are a result of the relationship I have with the Lord, not the cause. And anyway, scripture says that He created us to do good works that He prepared in advance for us to do. So we can’t take credit for those.
I’m not talking about going to church. I spent more than three years out of a regular church experience for reasons beyond my control. But during that time I pursued time with God in the word and prayer, and sought out other Christians, and opportunities to worship corporately in groups or online.
I’m not talking about “being religious” or some legalistic devotion to doing good works or reading the Bible and having your “quiet time” at a certain time every day. I have had periods in my life where I went long stretches of time without even knowing where my Bible was. But I have 26 years worth of Bible reading and memorizing to draw from, and plenty of Word “hidden in my heart” to sustain me during those times.
Prayer is one of my favorite pastimes. It is also communicating with God, but there is a danger in relying on that as your only avenue of communication with God. If you do not know God’s Word, how will you know if the being who is communicating with you is really God? You may be led into error by other spirits claiming to be God. The Holy Spirit, on the other hand, will never lead you into anything that conflicts with His Word. How can you know if what you are hearing from God conflicts with His Word if you never read it?
Well, that was the long way around saying there isn’t enough information here to “judge” either of them. But what one of the things you asked was which one reflected Jesus most in their life, and “reflect” implies that there is something we can see. So based on the info you have given us to see, I would have to say the pastor.
Loaded question of course.
Both ‘Christians’ are part of systems that innately promote the heaping-of-things on people without helping to lift the burden.
What we don’t see is how they are living in relationship with Jesus each other in the moments. Even the One most qualified of judging good and bad raises the question of “why do you call Me good”?
It is hard to say without that knowledge. It is possible they are in evil places to bring the presence of Jesus and introduce the Kingdom to many caught in places and circumstances where souls are atrophied and destroyed.
Like others, I agree it is impossible to determine who is the better Christian. I guess I struggle with the second man’s fulfillment of the Great Commission. While he impacted his community, did he make disciples “of all the nations”? Did his children, co-workers, community, etc know that he was a God-fearing man?
I would like to believe that I can know God, His character, and His will without reading the Bible or attending church – but I am a no-good sinner and require Scripture to provide me a roadmap – unchanging and infallable.
Thank God for grace!
Sarah, here’s a question for all to consider. Can we make disciples of all the nations and never ask someone for a commitment to Christ? And why is that the barometer for if we are fulfilling the great commission. What if this man loved Christ with all his heart, knew the Lord and in his business dealings, in his way up the ladder, while at the CC, on a plane, he exhibited Christs love? Would that be fulfilling the great commission?
To me that would be doing exactly what we are called to be, salt and light. In many cases we have a very strange concept of what it means to be a believer. (Notice how I very rarely use the word Christian as it’s a name given to us by the Pagans that and Christ never called us Christians.) I think walking in christs love and sharing the gospel through our actions and our lives is way more powerful than asking someone to go through the four spiritual laws.
Ken, I agree that we can bring the Lord to banking, Wall Street, corporate America and transform those arenas without asking people to come forward and give their lives to Christ. In fact, I know a few guys who are doing just that, one is Dan Stratton, who worked in Wall Street for years and now is down there being salt and light.
Kevin, I agree that reading the Bible and diving into it is a good way to understand what God is teaching us, vs. listening to a man or woman preach to me each week.
Which is exactly my point. Show me where in the Bible Jesus commanded us to attend church each Sunday, and Wednesdays. Show me where he tells us to be in Bible studies or lead them, or give 10% of our income.
He doesn’t. Why? Because he told us to love the Lord and love our neighbor as ourselves. If you love unconditionally, then you don’t need the law to keep you straight. If you love people for the process they’re in, then we lose the desire to condemn, judge and tell people how they’re falling short.
For me, going to church is just something I do. I’ve been to a number of churches nationwide. None compares to practicing the presence of God in all the things I do. Wash the dishes, spend time with my kids, work, make the bed, watch a ball game on TV. (Yes, God is there during Sunday afternoons watching football too.)
Ron, I think we’ll be surprised who is in heaven.
However, I don’t know where in the Bible it says to attend church, nor do I know of anywhere in the teachings of Jesus that he tells us to read the Bible daily. Remember, the Bible wasn’t created until 300 AD or so. I don’t disagree with reading the Bible, but for the record, I don’t read it daily. And I know many who do not, who have great lives of loving their fellow man unconditionally.
Well put Rick.
I think the first guy is the better Christian. It’s not because he became a minister. We can’t all become ministers. It’s not everyone’s calling to be a minister. You don’t need to be a minister to be a good Christian. You don’t need to be peniless to be a good Christian. You don’t need to go to church every Sunday to be a good Christian.
I don’t think it’s necessarily any of the obvious things that make the first guy the better Christian. However, I do think he was probably the better Christian. I can’t say that for sure because you never know for sure what is in a man’s heart. That being said, there was nothing about the second man’s life that would make you think that God was #1 in his life. To be a good Christian, God should be #1 in your life. That doesn’t mean that you have to be peniless or go to church every day. But it does mean that God is at the forefront of your mind in almost everything you do. The second guy seemed like a good guy but there was nothing in his life that showed me that God was his main focus.
Don’t get me wrong. I am like the second guy. I need to make God #1 in my life. I’m not there yet. Not only do I need to make God #1 in my life but I need to show others that God is #1 in my life. That is the best way to glorify God and that is what the Christian life is all about IMO. I am too much like the second guy. I need to be more like the first guy.
Isn’t it great that we are told not to compare ourselves with ourselves lest we become fools. Who can judge but God? And the fantastic thing is that He promises that IN THAT DAY, He will give EACH his reward.
We have a wonderful God, who doesn’t sit up and compare us with eachother, but, who on the contrary, is “touched by the feelings of our infirmities” knows what each went through, what price each paid, what motives each had, what is gold and what is straw… and through it all, provided we did it “in faith” (for whatever is NOT of faith is sin) He will REWARD us. Not chide us, not harangue us, but He will REWARD us. He is truly a wonderful Saviour
The second guy didn’t do what was commanded of him. One, he didn’t give his first fruits, 10% to God. Also it never mentions in the story if he had an intimate relationship daily with God and his son Jesus.
Coming to know Christ when your 16 and not having that intimate daily relationship with Jesus leads to temptations of the flesh & painful pride. That relationship is something you have to build on daily. I gave myself to Christ in my teens, but I didn’t build on that relationship and went out and did my own things. Sinning like it was going out of style.
Now that I’m older and have re-given myself to Jesus I understand now that it is a daily relationship that you have with him. It helps you to stay strong against the the temptations of this world. I can’t afford to not have that relationship with him, I cannot afford not to give my first fruits to God, so it can grow his kingdom. Paying your tithes is an insurance policy from God.
And we as Christians need to be transparent so they see Jesus through us and not see us. If more people see Jesus in us, more people can come to Jesus.
God has blessed me with a business of my own, but he gets all the glory for it.
The question was, which man “served God more and reflected Jesus more in their lives.” With that in mind, yes, it’s difficult to say too much without knowing a little more about each man, however Christ said that we shall know the tree by it’s fruit. From that point, it would seem clear that the first man came out ahead.
And as some have pointed out, there are clearly admonitions in Scripture to meet regularly with other believers and to spend time in the Word and prayer. The Christian faith can certainly be turned into a religion, and for many that’s all it is, but it’s really about the relationship God had with Adam and Eve in the garden, and which He clearly desires to have with us again. That doesn’t happen by osmosis or by just being a good person — how many people do I know who have left the church or are professing non-believers who are in many ways “better people” than people I know in the church…. The point is we will know the followers of Jesus by the fruit of their lives.
Personally, as concerns money, when I read what Christ had to say about money, he’s talking about how to handle it, not about just taking care of one’s family (Paul’s comment is more a negative than a positive regarding someone who won’t take care of their family.) The emphasis on money in His teaching is about seeing it as a tool for other things, and as Paul said, knowing how to have it or not to have it. And whether the first man’s family were resentful or not, we don’t know. My own kids have at times been resentful about our choices which have meant they don’t have all the money their (Christian) friends have, yet they have seen how God has provided for them ABUNDANTLY… which one is more important?
Finally, and not to beat a dead horse, but I have found a non-scriptural quote to be most apt in my 54 years of life: “To be a witness does not consist in engaging in propaganda nor even in stirring people up, but in being a living mystery. It means to live in such a way that there can be no explanation except that God exists.” Which one of the men did that? Which one of them, at the end, had people seeing something in their lives that pushed others to ask questions about God and seek answers and desire a similar relationship? We are called to be witnesses to God’s life in us and makers of disciples. How do we go about doing that?
Great question and the greatness of the question is in what is not said about each individual. This leaves room for us to try to fill in the blanks. I also believe that we need to be careful about terms like good christian but I understand the spirit of the illustraion. I am again though intrigued by what is not said. Why would some one not want to pursue the god and godly pursuit of having enough of the worlds goods to provide for onself as wellas the needs of others. Yes there are many good reasons not to but there are also plenty of bad ones (a spirit of sloth, Poverty mentality, irresponsibility etc…) and why would someone not want to be part of a local body of believers. why would you not want to expirience the joy of corporate worship sit under great consistent spirit filled teaching and mentoring from a local pastor do life with other believers recieve the blessing of using and letting others use thier gifts to bless a local body. Again there are many good reasons not to belong and our salvation doesnt hinge on it but there are also alot of bad reasons (fear of accountability, spirit of rebellion, not wanting our lifestyle challenged,etc…) Again the motivation of each individual is a bit fuzzy. I think both can be saved and intregal parts of the kingdom in either case but I would suggest they do what we all need to do . Occassionally evaluate what we do and why we do it keep ourslves open to God and his leading in our lives
Well put Luceille
Ronald, let’s hit the hard subject of giving first and foremost. Based on your comment, because the second man didn’t give to the ‘church’ he is being disobeidant to God… hmmm.. Well, the church isn’t a building. It is our neighborhood, our family, our friends, our business associates.
Based on your comment, unless he is giving to a church which then pays a mortgage and salaries, and utilities and has very little left to give into a community, that is the better option. The church is everywhere. If I give to my neighbor, is that not giving?
Next, God tells us he no longer keeps a record of rights and wrongs. He is no longer jealous, or envious. (1Corinthians 13) Why would then a God who loves us pour out his wrath if we don’t give to a church. I am not against giving, I just don’t see where we are to give to a church the way man has made it in the 21st century.
Finally, let’s take a long look at the stacks and stacks of men and women who showed up at a church weekly, attended Bible study and were in the word daily who have sinned. We only have to go as far as our own neighborhoods to see people who are attending church and bible study only to fall. Heck, let’s just look at the Catholic church. Or the Baptist preacher who looks at porn or the deacon of the church who has a mistress. The list goes on and on. (No offense to any denomination listed above.)
As for an insuarance policy with God. If that is the case, I gave well over 10% to the church. I gave 10% of business gross, 10% of my income, I gave cars, never turned down anyone who needed money. I would give without expectation and many times gave money where it could not be traced as to the source to protect and keep my humility.
Guess what happened? I went bankrupt. Not from giving, I was a great steward, Surviving on my savings for 18 months when the crap hit the fan.
Where was my insurance policy from God? It was not in the way of protection that we see it. When we give thinking that this is my insurance policy from God, we are no different that the Hindu who offers up sacrifices to a God or the guy who pays protection money to the mafia. We turn from Father God to Godfather when we take the approach of insurance.
I believe the second man is the better christian, if for no other reason than the fact that our first ministry is our FAMILY. The word says that he who doesn’t take care of his own family is worse than an infidel. The second man obeyed Christ’s two chief mandates: 1. “Love the Lord with all your heart, with all your soul, and all your mind” and 2. Love your neighbor as yourself”. Notice that doesn’t say love only your CHRISTIAN neighbor as yourself.
The fact that the second man was a man of excellence is a very powerful witness to he goodness of the Lord, of His love, of His faithfulness, of His provision to those who are good stewards of that with which they have been charged.
He was a good steward of his time, talent, and treasure, and just because he didn’t give 10% to the local church, since he didn’t really attend one, doesn’t mean that he wasn’t sowing into the Lord’s work through other ministries. The fact that he didn’t “minister” in the church doesn’t mean that he wasn’t actively engaged in “ministry” while he was sowing his time and talent into the schools. And if we only minister to or sow financially into other Christians, who exactly are we winning to Christ?
Everyone who is called into ministry isn’t called to minister in the church, and many people who are evangelists don’t even view themselves that way–they’re too busy walking in obedience to concern themselves with labels.. Sadly, I believe that so many people miss their calling into ministry because we so often want to confine it to that little box.
Let’s not overlook the fact that part of the legacy he left his children and grandchildren included “a legacy of faith”, meaning that he had to have been sharing Christ with someone somewhere at some point–if only through the way he lived his life. THe fact that he left trusts and foundations to for them to oversee suggests that he left them with a legacy of “giving” as well. And while he may not have “ministered” in the “church”, the fact that he positively impacted lives, even in death and for generations to come, suggests to me that while he may not have been in the church, the “church” was definitely in him.
I say all of this as a christian that is a member of a church, actively serve in ministry not only in my church, but through other organizations as well. I do attend regular bible study at my church and spend time daily in scripture and in prayer. I say this as a believer who gives 10+% to my church first, and sows into other ministries and charities as the Lord’s abundance permits. .And yes, when I support (with my time, talent, and/or treasure) breast cancer awareness, MS, battered women’s shelter’s, homeless shelters, or schools, it is without regard to the religious beliefs of the beneficiaries. I don’t share this to suggest that I’m super-christian, I most definitley am no, but only to communicate the fact that I totally “get” what that picture of relationship demonstrated by the first man looks like, as it in many ways mirrors my own. I have just been set free from the notion of challenging another person’s relationship with Christ based on what it looks like viewed though my personal grid.
Okay, so I can honestly say that I would not knowngly support an organization that I knew was athiest or pagan, but apart from that ….. Is that hypocrital? Possibly. But at the same time, just because I wouldn’t sow into their organations, doesn’t mean that I would walk away from an opportunity to share my faith either, if the opportunity presented itself–and it has a few times over the years–realizing that at the end of the day, we will probably just agree to disagree. It also doesn’t mean that I wouldn’t financially assist an individual who doesn’t share my beliefs under the right set of circumstances. Jesus’ compassion and his willingness to minister was not confined to those who shared his beliefs at the time. Had they been, he would not have had the following he had during his lifetime and since.
Christ said “Healthy people don’t need a physician”, so again I ask, if we are only willing to sow into the lives of other believers, who exactly are we winning to Christ? How exactly are we growing the kingdom?
I believe that God wants us to prosper, not only financially, but in our health, and spiritually as well. Everyone is not called to “go” into the mission field or into vocational ministry to touch the lives of others ultimately growing the kingdom.
Some of us are called to “send” (as in money, as in resources) to those who are.
And if we are barely getting by with enough time, talent, and treasure for “ourselves, our four, and no more”, how do you do that? And what kind of testiment to the Lord is that?
[...] 22, 2010 by Bob Regnerus Last week, Matt posted a blog on “A Story Of Two Believers” it detailed out the story of two young men who comes to know Christ and how their lives [...]
It is true it is not our place to judge a person, but it is important to confront the spreading of a false gospel. Comments stating that the bible doesn’t say anything about the importance of spending time in the word, going to church or tithing is just wrong. I posted 2 earlier, some others are: 2Tim3:16, acts17:11, heb4:12, eph6:17, Col3:16, ps119:11 & 105, Matt 4:4, James 1:2, Matt 15:17, acts20:28, heb13:17, heb 10:24, mal3:8-10, 1Tim6:18, luke 14:33, Matt23:23, num18:21, Matt 6:20-21. These are some of the verses! If the church wasn’t important then the bible would stop at John! The other 23 books are all about the gathering of the saints, evangelism IN JESUS name, the building of the church, and the exhortations to them.
The Christian life is not easy. That’s why EVEN JESUS had to stop and regularly take a quiet time with God. His apostles were always meeting together and studying what scriptures they did have, what stories they remembered. It is not a legalistic ritualistic thing, but when we look at the men that had the closest encounter with God and their response, I think there we can see the type of response someone would have once they truely encountered God. The word says you will know them by their fruits. If someone is truly in love, they will talk about it and think about it often. Especially for the rich man, it is said its even harder for him to get to heaven. We get so encumbered by the world and put our trust so much in our money and things instead, and sometimes God has to take it away to get us to look up. NO ONE can love both God and money!
Unfortunately the word says the road to heaven is narrow. Even the demons believe! The Christian life is about total trust and surrender! Sometimes that means dropping our pride that says we don’t need a pastor, discipleship group, or daily quiet time. If we ever think we can do this alone, especially in such a sick culture, we are horribly wrong! Look at the fall of the great men in the old testament. Often its from getting too wrapped up in the idolatrous culture around them! Working in the world and witnessing while being in the world is great and noble! Going to a secular school and being a light I would say is even better then keeping yourself in the bubble. But there needs to be a balance, which there doesn’t seem to be in this specific story.
This life isn’t about good works, many business men do philanthropic deeds, but that won’t necessarily bring them closer to God or get them a ticket to heaven. Salt and light isn’t just about being a nice guy, its about being different then the world and shining the glory of GOD! If people see your good works and give glory to God, then its as Jesus has told us to do. If we get the thanks and glory, we are doing it wrong and finding a way to put ourselves in Gods place. This is very dangerous! For someone to ask if its really important to invite them to receive Christ is ridiculous! Would you want your child to know about but never receive Christ? Of course not. How valuable are all of Gods children! My mom had faith in a higher power and helped others and was thus spiritual. This pointed me not to Jesus, but to think I could by myself get to God. It is important to show that there is a difference. Believing we have a creator is not what we need… that fact that we need a savior to sustain us and make us into who we were created to be is the point of the gospel.
The worst idea that seems to be being passed around on this thread is the idea that consistent guidance is not needed to form a proper relationship with God, a proper idea of who He is. Without structure of regularly studying the bible, alone and as a group where iron can sharpen iron, our ideas will be formed by where we do spend the majority of our time and money or by our own thoughts, and this is called Idolatry!! The road this thread is going down seems very scary if it is taking the spiritual disciplines of the apostles, that they learned directly from Jesus, and putting them to the side and saying in essence they are useless. It definitely makes me rethink subscribing to these blogs.
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Jessica, I think we have a different description of the church. Man has made it about buildings and sunday attendance. When I ask where did Jesus state in the church that we are attend church, that is what I mean.
Where does it say to go to a church on sunday and look at the back of someones head? It doesn’t.
The church is where two or more are gathered in his name. When my son and I are watching a baseball game, he is with us. When I mow the lawn he is with me.
We’ve taken church to mean it’s about a building. Jesus came to show us it’s about a heart.
As for tithing, I do not have an issue with giving. I have an issue with giving to mortgage, staff, salaries, utilities and lawn care.
Why not give direct? What would happen if no one showed up for six months’ of Sundays and shared Jesus through their lives. But not just on a Sunday. But for 7 days a week and 24 hours a day? I am not suggesting that we go out and ‘evangelize’ on the street corner either. What if we just loved our neighbor? What if, instead of going to church, we loved our waitress, or car mechanic?
J- it comes down to this. Man has made our relationship with the father about obligation. Attending church on Sundays (two times if you are serious and Wednesday if you want to be super human), giving 10% to the church, being in not one but two bible studies and serving in the inner city.
There is nothing wrong with any of that, as long as you are not doing it out of fear of the father or obligation.
I need guidance as much as the next person. But when I walk in his love daily, seeking him daily in all things, more than just a book, my understanding of him, my grace for my fellow man soars.
That is what Jesus came to teach us. Not to put us in bondage, but to free us from obligation.